Merit Pay, Teacher Pay, and Value Added Measures

Value added measures sound fair, but they are not. In this video Prof. Daniel Willingham describes six problems (some conceptual, some statistical) with evaluating teachers by comparing student achievement in the fall and in the spring.

Uploaded by: dbw8m
Tags for this video: merit pay value added measures teacher pay teacher compensation testing

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@ThexKoandaxBears A ... ( 1 year ago by dbw8m)

@ThexKoandaxBears A successful value added model would account for this. . . you can not only account for change scores over the year, you can account for the typical change score for a particular child. . .so the child with parents who are not supportive will typically have had low change scores by the time they get to fifth grade, for example. But this does assume that change scores will be stable in the child, and if they differ in a particular year, it's because of the teacher

Your open-mindeness ... ( 1 year ago by GordonWayneWatts)

Your open-mindeness to merit pay is admirable for an opponent of the plans you oppose, but you miss one key point: Even if there are errors in the system, the 'plus' errors and the 'minus' errors tend to cancel out when you average the entire set of students each teacher would have over his or her tenure. Understand what I mean? The 'kids move away' problems, for example, occurs for ALL teacher from time-to-time, thus leveling the playing field. Take a statistics class to learn more/ :-) :-)

@GordonWayneWatts ... ( 1 year ago by cornbreadjunkie)

@GordonWayneWatts This problem happens far more often in poor areas where home ownership is not the norm. In an area that is primarily apartments, for instance, the student population is constantly in flux. You may have kids who attend three different schools in a year.
My first school had a transient population, the 5th or 6th grade, most of the kids who had started in kindergarten were no longer attending the school. It's a disincentive for good teachers to teach difficult populations.

@cornbreadjunkie - ... ( 1 year ago by GordonWayneWatts)

@cornbreadjunkie - That makes sense, but remember: McDonald's and Wal-Mart make money in ALL these markets -and you know why? They don't get gov't help and KNOW that they must turn out a quality product. So, how does this relate to 'difficult populations?' Well, many businesses pay more for employees who work in 'difficult' situations -be it night shift or high crime area. So, if private businesses can do without subsidies -AND IT WORKS!!, maybe schools should follow suit, hello?

@dbw8m - I could ... ( 1 year ago by GordonWayneWatts)

@dbw8m - I could not have said it better then TMaroo, so I won't .. OK, I will... If everywhere ELSE in the real world you have merit-based pay incintives, why do teachers think they're special? Makes you WONDEr about their motives here. "Things that make you go 'Hmm...'." --His/Her 'Over the long haul' comment referred to the statistical law of averages -as I've said B4, study statistics to get a grip on this concept. Thank you 4 not being 'against' merit pay -so, how would YOU do merit pay??

Merit pay: bad in ... ( 1 year ago by MrNeaguy)

Merit pay: bad in theory, even worse in practice.
Teachers are already giving everything they've got.
This will only make things worse.

Teachers who are ... ( 1 year ago by Mitchapalooza23)

Teachers who are caught sleeping in class don't even get fired, this is fair for their students?
I'm sorry but teachers need to be held accountable for results just like every other profession on the planet.

@GordonWayneWatts ... ( 1 year ago by MarShae04)

@GordonWayneWatts Actually, the error rate is 26%, meaning that 26% of all teachers considered effective are not and 26% of all teachers considered ineffective actually are. The actual measurement is unfair. There is no statistical way to account for variables outside of a teacher's control.

@TMaroo As a good ... ( 1 year ago by MarShae04)

@TMaroo As a good teacher, I was given a difficult class one year and the lady across the hall with poor classroom management was given an well-behaved class full of children on grade level. Her test scores were MUCH better than mine, but I worked MUCH harder at keeping my class in order and actually getting them to read by the end of the year. How do the test scores show that I am a good teacher? It looks like I'm an awful teacher.

@MarShae04 - It is ... ( 1 year ago by GordonWayneWatts)

@MarShae04 - It is sad that there is error in the calculation, but some merit is probably better than nothing -and, in fact, such human error probably exists in all fields and professions. -- We are human, and we can only do the best we can do, but correct for all the errors possible we must do. Either do or do not - there is no 'try.' YODA. -Star Wars

close all public ... ( 1 year ago by longfootbuddy)

close all public schools.. its wrong to rob people to fund the education of someone else's kid

If you really want ... ( 1 year ago by honsusando)

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@Mitchapalooza23 I ... ( 1 year ago by dwees2)

@Mitchapalooza23 I don't think the video is saying that teachers shouldn't be accountability, just that merit pay won't work. You did watch the video right?

I say no to merit ... ( 7 months ago by rh001YT)

I say no to merit pay for teachers, but of course yes in business. although school is required to prepare citizens for biz, the child is not ready for biz - it's too harsh - so the model for one is not applicable to the other. And we hope that education is a time of incubation for emergence of better ideas, whereas in biz the focus is making the same but with greater efficiencies. The solution for the West is education vouchers, while in Asia the current system works well enough.

No test scheme for ... ( 7 months ago by rh001YT)

No test scheme for teachers will work, except to weed out the worst, and so a test just for that makes sense. As the child is individualistic in capabilities he/she can't be expected to achieve at the same rate nor to the same benchmark. Via testing, the students can be segregated according to ability and then taught at different speeds. those slotted to lower speeds should be provided with study guides & strategies to increase speed & allowed to join higher speed groups when speed is attained.

When state ... ( 7 months ago by gm7add11)

When state officials stop meddling and trying to micro-manage public education, of which they understand very little, teachers can get back to the business of teaching. Teachers have been screaming for years that mandated assessments DO NOT accord with prescribed curricula, and NO ONE listens.

It's silly that ... ( 4 months ago by JohnLeeMD)

It's silly that this is made so hard a system. It really isn't that hard to see who does a good job, and who doesn't. In a lot of ways, a school staff can be looked at as a company. In the company, they should have something of a Board of Directors. That board of directors should be able to quickly see who's good, who's worthy, and who maybe not so. It's NOT that hard. Those who are good, pay them. Those who aren't, you don't pay them. Simple.

@Mitchapalooza23 - ... ( 3 months ago by jdimichele)

@Mitchapalooza23 - Lets not get silly. I have never heard of a teacher sleeping in class in all my years of teaching.

@GordonWayneWatts ... ( 3 months ago by jdimichele)

@GordonWayneWatts How would you evaluate myself as the only engineering teacher and no standardized test scores? Just a thought. Not all teachers have standardized test scores and not all principals are experts at every field of study. Do you think that two 30 minute observations by a principal can determine a teachers merit pay in all subject areas?

@jdimichele You may ... ( 3 months ago by GordonWayneWatts)

@jdimichele You may be the only engineering teacher in YOUR hi school or college but you're NOT the only engineering teacher in the world! Therefore 2B fair U must B compared against yr peers. Now regarding two 30-minute observations by a principle alone: No,of course that's not sufficient 2B fair but several observations by SEVERAL observers & SEVERAL standardized tests AND student evaluations WITH corrections for your district's poverty level (which affects student performance) IS fair! Right?

Array ( 3 months ago by MsJanetWood)

A+
Great job!
Funny and informative at the same time!

@TMaroo isn't that ... ( 1 month ago by aussiedawgz1)

@TMaroo isn't that what we pay administrators the big bucks for? they are the ppl that observe us, review our goals, mentor us, and at least in my school, meet with us at least 3 x per year. Why do we need another layer? Are administrators doing the job they get paid for? Maybe they are the prob. there was language in contracts to remove ineffective teachers, but u need an effective admin to pursue that end. I have seen it happen in several schools. i am sick of teacher bashing.